Before she said a word about paying off debt or investing, financial educator Bernadette Joy would ask her clients to draw a picture of themselves in retirement. “Where are you? Who are you with? What are you doing?” she would ask.
No one drew themselves on a megayacht or private plane, Joy said. Instead, she saw depictions of nature and time spent with family.
People need a vision worth saving for, according to Joy. For her, that vision was travel, spending time with friends and having more time for hobbies like dance classes.
She credits that vision, along with her Crush financial philosophy, a willingness to pick up side gigs and thrifty habits like sharing a car, with allowing her and her husband to step back from full-time work this year at just 40.
“I’m saying ‘no’ a lot more than I ever have,” she said. “‘No’ to things I used to have to say yes to because I needed the income, the opportunity, the validation.” That’s allowed her to say yes to adventures like trying out standup comedy and following the K-pop band BTS on tour.
Joy, who worked as a recruiter before founding her coaching business in 2020, went from having $300,000 in debt to being financially independent in 10 years, a journey she has shared with her 43,000 followers and detailed in her Oprah Daily- and New York Public Library-lauded book, Crush Your Money Goals.
She is part of a vibrant crop of coaches and influencers who, while they may not have traditional credentials, offer experience-driven, love-it-or-hate-it advice in lieu of hands-on money management. Some of these new voices peddle dubious claims – no, day trading will probably not make you rich. But many, like Joy, say they are bringing much-needed transparency, representation and real-world nuance to a topic long dominated by privileged gatekeepers who may fail to address the emotional and psychological dimensions of money.
These are the subjects of a new Guardian series, Money whisperers.
“My clients are not struggling because they don’t know what a Roth IRA is,” Joy said. “They’re struggling because they’re overwhelmed, their spending doesn’t match their goals or they’ve never actually sat down to define what ‘enough’ looks like. That’s where I come in.”
The Guardian caught up with Joy to talk about the math behind early retirement, her take on when not to invest in a 401(k) and the best thing she ever bought. This interview took place over several conversations and was edited for length and clarity.
How did you go from having $300,000 in debt to being financially independent in 10 years?
We have lived significantly below our means. The house that I bought [last year] was $375,000, even though we had enough money for a $1m house. Before that we had a one-bedroom apartment in Charlotte that cost $1,900 a month. We drive a $25,000 Hyundai Sonata.
We have budgeted every month consistently for 10 years, and prioritized investing once we paid off all the debt – the gains and dividends from our stocks have become an income stream. We were also very strategic about our real estate: we bought and sold three different homes in North Carolina and were able to make decent gains on each of those.
This year, you announced to your followers that you were stepping back from work and retiring at age 40. How much money did you have in the bank? And how much were you earning before leaving full-time employment?
We’re at $2.1m in net worth, which is mostly in stocks. $400,000 of it is our primary residence. We also have about $250,000 sitting in cash so that we don’t have to pull from our investments at this moment.
Last year, my husband, AJ, [an IT project manager] and I earned a combined $294,000.
That’s about three times the median income for a two-person household in the US. You’ve also posted about not having children or a mortgage, since you paid for your home in cash. What can others gain from your experience?
We weren’t high earners when we started this journey. Ten years ago, we were earning a combined $125,000. The frugal habits we learned when we weren’t making a lot of money have carried over so that when we started making more money, we were able to put more of it away in savings. We haven’t inflated our lifestyles even though we earn significantly more than when we first started.
How did you figure out how much you would need to retire?
It’s a little bit of faith. My target number was $2m, and the thought process was $1m for my husband and $1m for myself.
What I did, and what I instruct [others] to do, is to lay out your five basic monthly living expenses: housing, utilities, transportation, health (health insurance as well as other expenses like fitness classes and supplements), and food. You multiply that by 12, and you multiply that by 25, and you get what your retirement number is supposed to be.
The next step would be to take that number and say, what would change in retirement? Would I live in a smaller house? Would I eat out less? And calculate it again.
For us, our basic living expenses are about $4,000 a month. By that rule, we would need [a combined] $1.2m, assuming we didn’t spend anything else other than our basic living expenses. But I don’t just want to stay at home. I want to be able to go to concerts. I was like, let me have a little bit of cushion.
You’re referencing the 4% rule, which is a much-debated rule of thumb that says if you invest an amount of money equal to your yearly expenses times 25, you can live off of it for 30 years in the worst-case market performance – and many more in the best case. Would you recommend that as a benchmark?
I would. It’s easy math, and it’s a conservative number that has some room for error.
You’re still posting online, hosting events, coaching and seeking opportunities to be an angel investor. How many hours do you work a week? What does retirement mean for you?
I’m working about 20 hours a week between my coaching clients and organizing the upcoming Plutus Impact Summit. Retired means I’m saying no a lot more than I ever have. No to things I used to have to say yes to because I needed the income, the opportunity, the validation. I’m not chasing any new customers or clients.
Is there anything about saving for retirement you wish you had learned earlier?
When I had access to 401(k) with an employer match, I wish I had maxed it out. Not just up to the match, but the full amount I was allowed. [In 2026, US workers can contribute up to $24,500 of income from their paychecks.] I could have retired even earlier if I had just put more money into my 401(k). I would also have saved a bunch of money on taxes.
What’s a common piece of money advice that drives you crazy?
I don’t think people with credit card debt should be investing in the stock market, especially people who don’t have any savings. I think it’s irresponsible for financial educators to be telling people you should put money you can’t afford to lose into the stock market.
Never? Not even in a 401(k) or another type of retirement account? Some experts argue that you should at least contribute as much as your employer will match, as that’s essentially a 100% return on your investment.
No, and I feel very strong about this. The employer match is great. On paper, it’s a 100% return. But if someone has high-interest credit card debt and no savings, their biggest problem is not missing out on a match. Their biggest problem is fragility.
They’re one emergency, one layoff or one life event away from going deeper into debt with no options. And money in a 401(k) is not easily accessible without penalties. [In most cases, withdrawing from a 401(k) before the age of 59½ triggers a 10% penalty plus ordinary income tax on the amount withdrawn.] So you’re effectively locking money away while your financial foundation is unstable.
I’ve seen this play out in real life. People stay in jobs they hate, delay leaving unhealthy relationships or take on more debt because their money is tied up in retirement accounts they can’t touch. So my priority order is: Build a basic cash cushion, eliminate high-interest credit card debt and then invest, including capturing the employer match.
What’s the worst purchase you’ve ever made?
I don’t want to say my MBA (which cost over $100,000, easily) was the worst, but what I paid for it v what I got out of it was not in equilibrium. Most of what you learn in building a business is trying stuff and failing and not doing that again.
And the best?
I just bought my first long-term home in August. We paid for it in cash. It turns out: when you don’t have to get a mortgage, buying a home is really not that challenging. Now that’s going to sound insensitive, but I just need to remind: It took a decade of really consistent money habits and intentional planning to be able to finally buy a home for me and my husband and pay for it in cash. I’m very proud of that.
One last thing, you posted online recently that eating out can be good for your budget. Help me understand!
For me, as an Asian American, food is one of the ways that I’m able to connect with my culture in a more affordable way than buying a ticket to the Philippines or to Korea.
I’m also just a cheap eater. I’m good with non-fancy restaurants.
Four key takeaways from Bernadette Joy:
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Create a detailed vision of your dream retirement so you have a clear goal to work toward.
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Calculate your investment target by multiplying your yearly expenses by 25.
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If you have access to a 401(k), contribute as much as you can – unless you have credit card debt!
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Keep a budget and live below your means.